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As Others See Us

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Very sobering to see ourselves as others see us. Some of it was right on the mark, and some was over the top (Zimbabwe?). We are in a sorry mess, but the blame is not entirely Obama's. The culture of greed that brought us all down deserves to suffer.

At the moment I'm more interested in how necessary it's become to pervert the truth for purposes of diplomacy. Obama's speech last Thursday - Islam has a strong tradition of tolerance??? Has always been part of America? And vampires are flying over Savannah. The irony of all this is that the folks Obama was trying to win over heard only the parts they wanted to hear. Meanwhile Iran will still get its nukes and there still won't be peace in the Middle East.

#1
Re: "Meanwhile Iran will still get its nukes and there still won't be peace in the Middle East."
How can there be peace in the Middle East if the 'playbook' does not work, but will not change? Of course, as any garden variety anti-semite or State Dept. flunky will tell you, "WE NEED OIL, NOT JEWS!" And there is a grotesque sort of honesty in that rough, low sentiment.

With that in mind, I direct your attention to a sobering piece Dick Morris has written about Israel's future and its chances for survival.

* In classic Stockholm Syndrome fashion, the Obama administration is empathizing more with the Iranian leaders who are holding Israel hostage than with the nation that may be wiped off the map...

* If Iran gets the bomb, it will use it to kill six million Jews. No threat of retaliation will make the slightest difference.

* If we remain complacent, we will have the same anguish at watching the destruction of Israel that our forebears had in witnessing the Holocaust.

Whether these sentiments (and the article they derive from) may resonate within you or repel you as an afront to your own well reasoned beliefs, I ask, nevertheless, that you please read carefully this taught little column because it concerns not only our brethren in Israel, but also ourselves and our own souls. We're getting right down to the wire!

While I think that Obama's appeasement of the worst regimes on earth is very worrisome, I don't agree with Morris' dire prediction. My predictions are no less dire, but they're not the same as his.

Iran will not actually nuke Israel. It won't have to. It has other ways of accomplishing its ends.

Advantages to not nuking Israel:

1. Iran suffers no retaliation (never mind the US, Israel has nuclear subs).

2. Iran can continue to pursue its dream of empire.

3. Iran can strengthen its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah to do the dirty work for it, and there will be no stopping it.

4. If Iran nukes Israel, the Palestinians will go too. Iran would not like to shoulder the blame for that.

The result will be the same, the end of Israel, but it will just take a little longer.

Now, the way for Israel's end to come quickly is for Israel to attack Iran. Israel would not survive. Israel already couldn't cope with a few missiles from the north and the south. It cannot withstand full-scale retaliatory missile attacks from Iran and Hezbollah. That's why I don't think Israel will attack.

The US also has good reasons for discouraging an attack. Iranian retaliation would result in a disruption of oil supplies and a shattering of the world's already fragile economy.

So nobody gains by an attack. Those who favor an attack have not convincingly responded to the evidence showing that by attacking Iran Israel would be committing suicide. Even if an Israeli attack succeeded, it would set Iran back only a couple of years, after which it really could find a justification for nuking Israel.

#3
To attack or not to attack? Either way, little Israel is encompassed by nihilism and death at the end of her rainbow (whether a little sooner or a little later), while the world watches and waits. It is a cold death watch (or death wish), but is it not the perfect setup?

#4
Indeed. Not a whole lot of options here. The question really is, will it go out with a bang or with a whimper?

#5
Re: "The question really is, will it go out with a bang or with a whimper?"
And here is where we part company, as this is no question at all for me, but a bet at a funeral where the corpse is ourselves--ALL Jewry--but the croupier is everyone else. In the face of this impending slaughter, there can be only one question for me:

If "the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof," and if God the Almighty is good, how can this Holocaust happen again to His Jews, here on earth, in His sight?

Forgive me, Carlos, but nothing in Judeochristianity can sufficiently answer that one question (in my mind and in my soul) for the living, here on earth. We Jews have already been crucified once this century, while the world watched. If there is one God who is good, this should not have happened once, but it must not happen twice to the same people. However, if it is allowed to happen again, then there is either no such thing as "God" as we perceive it, or my horrific theory of the duality and split in God's nature holds. Take your pick, Carlos, but do not place your bet.

There is no easy answer to the questions you raise. First, let's remember that the last act of this play hasn't played out yet. We don't know how or even if things will end. Iran cannot make a nuclear strike against Israel without suffering tremendous and unacceptable damage. A more likely scenario will be an emboldened Iran strengthening its proxies to do the job by more conventional means. That will take a lot longer, and who knows what else will happen in the meantime.

Just one other complication (which I know you won't like to hear) is that Israel brought much of this on itself. Were it not for its completely stupid settlements policy, the occupied territories would still be in the hands of Jordan and Egypt, instead of being the anarchic bases for terrorism that they are today. Israel must come up with a way of dealing with this blunder.

But I realize all this does not solve the problem of the Jewish people. We can't know the complete answer to the theological question you raise. Why would two Holocausts challenge faith any more than one? Wasn't one bad enough? Why shouldn't the death of even one single innocent be an obstacle to faith? The truth is, we just do not know how time interlaces with eternity. I believe there will be a judgment. And when it comes, I would rather be a victim than a Nazi, if those are my only choices. We do not see complete judgment meted out on this earth - because God wants us to pursue the good because it is good, and not because it will be rewarded. If we could see the complete reward of the righteous and destruction of the wicked on this physical plane, then the pursuit of goodness for its own sake would be impossible.

So that is my answer: keep pursuing goodness and love not because you think you'll see a reward, or you expect the destruction of the wicked, but only because it is good and it is God's will. Then God's presence will be revealed in your life. You won't get the complete answer - not in this life - but you will find faith. And faith is really all we need.

Re: "And faith is really all we need."
Only if we're lucky! I'm afraid that in this life, faith--like love--is not enough. Not while the beast devours the lamb.

As for God's presence being revealed in my life, it may be foolishly presumptuous, but I often think it has been revealed to me. As has the overpowering presence of evil. And though I truly believe in God and goodness, belief is still not quite the same as faith. And I cannot locate that sort of rock solid faith so long as evil (in all its manifestations) reigns and rules here on earth, without God's judgment.

Here and in the next world, innocence cries out to God that is, but what is His goodness without judgment?

How do we know there is no judgment?

Here on earth we see just the beginning of judgment. We saw Hitler fall. We saw the Soviet Union collapse. We see Arab society destroying itself with its hatred for Jews. We do NOT see complete judgment, not here on earth, but we see just the beginning.

If we expect the kingdom of heaven here on earth, we will be forever disappointed. Our only salvation is to become one of the few workers of the light. If there are enough, the world will be saved. We can direct only one destiny - our own.

Isaiah said God "makes a way in the sea and a path in the mighty waters." This is an individual discovery. It manifests in the lives of individuals, so we won't find it by watching the news. All we can do is test it out for ourselves.

No society on earth ever decided for the light. It has only been individuals choosing that path, and finding that every suffering has a meaning, every cross presages a redemptive message. Only the individual choosing goodness will ever discover this. It does not happen on the social or on the national level.

Remember that on this plane "we only see through a mirror, dimly." This world is not all there is. It is just one tiny piece of a much larger whole. In the rest of that whole is where the balance lies. So what are we doing here? A wise hospice chaplain once said, "We are not made to be here." I asked him, "Then why are we here?" His response: "To build God's creation."

#9
Re: "Here on earth we see just the beginning of judgment. We saw Hitler fall. We saw the Soviet Union collapse. We see Arab society destroying itself with its hatred for Jews. We do NOT see complete judgment, not here on earth, but we see just the beginning."

Perhaps, but WE are the viewers of history, not its victims (not yet, that is). THEY in the direct path of history--the innocent, the martyred, the destroyed--they are the sacrifice. To what, for what? And they went to their deaths with no rescue or recourse--thrown blindly into the void by the monsters who survived them. What justice, what lesson can the mere viewer glean from that--let alone the victim?

#10:
A tough question. There are many answers, and they are all partial answers.

There were those - perhaps few, but they did exist - who entered the gas chambers with faith, with the Shema on their lips. They have something to teach us. I have seen some hospice patients meet intense suffering and death with faith and confidence. They have something to teach us. They were all aware of some other, unseen dimension of reality that responded to and overcame their fear. Even if we ourselves are not capable of that level of faith, we can still marvel at those who were, and wonder how we might know what they knew.

It took even Jesus time to get there, but he did. He was afraid in the garden. He was afraid on the cross. But before he died, he expressed confidence and faith.

For other partial answers, see chapter 14 of my book. Also click here. Partial answers are all we get in this life. In the next, perhaps we might be blessed to see it all.

#11
I fear your partial answers, in this life, may be no more than hopes and prayers.

Re: "the universe is so constructed that love in its greatest and fullest depth could not be revealed without the experience of terrible suffering and pain."
-- Why Did God Let It Happen?

Perhaps that is true, perhaps not. However I suspect that if given a choice most mortals (myself included) would opt out of love "in its greatest and fullest depth" if it came with that particular condition of "terrible suffering and pain." And let us not forget that love--even love "in its greatest and fullest depth"--was still not enough to prevent this evil (or any other evil) from happening. That's the point.

We human beings, though longing for and aspiring toward the eternal, Almighty, God are also connected and hard-wired to The Other. It is more than a shadow, it is a part of us--and of HIM. And it does not go away! Not at all, not in this life. Why should you presume it will not be present afterwards, because you've been good? It will be present there, too. Perhaps with resolution--perhaps not--but I would hope with salvation for the blessed among us, such as yourself.

By the way, despite my dark and antagonistic responses, I want you to know that I found your comments in #9 to be some of the clearest, purest arguments in defense of optimism and faith that I've ever read anywhere. I think they are true but only a (glorious, revealed) fragment of a far greater truth which for us, in this life, transposes as CHAOS.

Well these are not easy questions. If it were up to me, I would not have created the world, rather than have created it the way it is. And I would not have signed up for the ride. But I'm not God. I don't get a say in the matter. That's probably a good thing too.

We're asking the ultimate question: Is the universe in its entirety by nature good, evil, or neither? I don't think we can project onto the whole our experience on this earth. The Bible speaks of "The Prince of this world." C.S. Lewis calls this world "enemy-occupied territory." These ways of putting it express the sense that the word we get now is not the last word.

What will be the last word? It's not subject to rational proof. I think it's more something we are able to sense, specifically through the power of goodness. Goodness is creative; evil is destructive. Goodness is love; evil is fear. The forms of evil are forms of nonbeing; they are negations, they are not substantial in themselves. They depend on goodness. Goodness can exist without evil, but evil cannot exist without the good, for evil must have something to negate.

Listen to the heart. Listen to the soul. There you will find fear, for sure, but that's not all. Look underneath the fear - what do you find? The phrase "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted" keeps running through my mind. Why is this phrase so powerful? There is suffering, death, and morning; yet these words resonate over thousands of years. What gives them their power? If you can sense that power, you'll find a better answer than any logical argument I could possibly produce.

#13
Beautifully spoken, Carlos. You have given answers and wisdom, and I thank you! What follows is my honest reaction to all that you have given.

When the Bible speaks of "The Prince of this world," there is Lucifer. And I find that image to be a perfect fit for this dimension that you, my friend, would never have created in the first place. AMEN!

We're asking the ultimate question: Is the universe in its entirety by nature good, evil or neither?

It is BOTH, at once, and that is why we humans in this world experience it as chaos. For indeed, it is that!

Should there be an Almighty, an 'afterlife' and an immortal soul for each being that passes (after life) to the Almighty, then the answer to your "ultimate" question cannot be either/or, for that is man-made and eternity, the universe, the 'Almighty' are not! But between good and evil is something else we cannot fathom here--something more, unfathomable in human terms. Maybe that is part of what is divine, or pure chaos, until we pass over--into what?

Re: "Goodness is love; evil is fear." No, evil is not just simply fear though it is part of it, but not all. Fear resonates, is palpable and understandable in human terms. Evil is not. It's a thing apart (unto itself) and ultimately unknowable.

Goodness can exist without evil, but evil cannot exist without the good, for evil must have something to negate.

That evil must have something to negate is irrefutable which is why evil always ends in devouring itself--before manifesting once again, as night follows day and dawn eclipses the night. But can evil not exist without the good? Who's to say? Ever heard of Black Holes?

Re: "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted"
That is God's Truth in every sense (and for all six human senses). When we truly mourn, the Spirit may abide with us and speak directly to us as clearly and deeply as a knowing, loving parent. That's how well Spirit (all Spirit) knows us! And here we have touched the very tipping point, at last: God's voice speaks to and from the spiritual; Satan's is of the Occult. God's voice is for the human soul while Satan's calls the human animal--and we are both, as They are.

On this plane we literally tare ourselves in two trying to establish balance in chaos (which is ONE). No matter what we do here, we must lose something, and end by losing all. Therefore, in this life, God--as we experience It--cannot truly be a loving God for we humans as we are. The rest must be taken on faith, if you can manage that. For we are orphaned here. So if we cannot find our way to true faith, then let us continue to question everything and continue to listen and look (within). Some call it prayer:

See what you can believe......

Even a black hole can't exist without being a hole inside something else, the universe. Evil depends on good. Good does not depend upon evil, except to make itself known as good.

God's voice is for the human soul while Satan's calls the human animal--and we are both

Yes, and the animal is mortal, while the soul is immortal.

Faith does not change our experience as much as offering a different way of perceiving it. Everything that happens to us, the bad and the good, is part of our training in becoming who we really are, who God wants us to be. That is, if we choose the path of the spirit, the path of love. Otherwise we're like pinballs in the shooting gallery; we just take what we get. The only way out of the dilemma that I can see is to choose the path of the spirit and then notice whether all the junk in your life starts to fall into a pattern. If you can see that pattern, trust it. It's like breadcrumbs leading you through the forest.

Every misfortune we suffer drives us towards our destiny - provided we make that choice. And the greater the misfortune, the farther it propels us. If there were no way out of the morass, if the universe were truly morally neutral, we would not have any sense of goodness. Yet we do; we know the distiction between good and evil is fundamental. That sense of value must come from somewhere.

#15
You've given me so much to ponder, and I realize at this juncture I am practically splitting hairs. But in the context of this subject matter, it is more like fine tuning for the sake of clarity and deeper understanding.

Re: "Evil depends on good."
That is not quite how I see it--or feel it. Evil depends on itself but feeds off of the good (or anything else) like a spiritual vampire. It is implacable.

Re: "...and the animal is mortal, while the soul is immortal."
And the soul is immortal in accord with the Almighty--everywhere and immortal. But where God is, there, too, is Nemesis.

Where there is humanity, there is soul; where there is soul, there is immortality; where there is immortality, there is the eternal: God. But where God is, there follows the Other. This is a circle. The universe is infinite, but the circle closes for it is human consciousness. Beyond that boundary is the infinite which is beyond our understanding and is the Almighty. We take it on faith that that is goodness, for God is love.

Faith does not change our experience as much as offering a different way of perceiving it.

As I recall your differentiation between 'faith' and 'belief' (from Judeochristianity), one's beliefs can be linked to one's training or belief systems (of philosophy, religion or indoctrination). But faith comes from another kind of experience from within one's own soul. It is more of a spiritual 'leap' that requires nothing else; no adherents, no dogma. It is between you and Spirit (as is the Occult). If I'm getting this right, then yes, I too have faith (in addition to my own belief systems), but my faith is always mingled with doubt.

Re: "That is, if we choose the path of the spirit, the path of love."
Excuse me, but in choosing the path of spirit we may indeed be on the path of love--or we may follow Spirit elsewhere. It would be remiss (and even dangerous) not to take this into account.

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

And in perfect keeping with that quotation, do not forget, dear Carlos, just who it is that HAMLET is an anagram for.

Yes my dear Hamlet, your irony is not lost on me.

What all this boils down to is our basic understanding of the universe: Is it dualistic, a never-ending battle between two opposing principles, or is it ultimately one whole?

Which it is cannot be proven either by science or by logic. I only get it through meditation on the nature and power of goodness.

"Evil feeds off the good" - precisely. It could not exist without the good to feed off of. Goodness needs no such favors. Evil by nature is an attack on goodness. But goodness uses evil to reveal itself as compassion ("with suffering").

Take another look at chapter 1, "Does God Exist?" The Greeks had the insight that the nature of goodness is such that even the gods are subordinate to it. Only goodness has creative power. Only through goodness could something have come into being out of nothing. The experience of evil is a stage along the way; it is our learning process. School is not fun. But it is also not forever. One day we graduate.

All suffering comes to an end. But "Love never ends" (1 Corinthians 13:8). That's the answer to your question. Now understanding that answer, not with the mind but with the heart - that is the journey of a lifetime.

#17

What all this boils down to is our basic understanding of the universe: Is it dualistic, a never-ending battle between two opposing principles, or is it ultimately one whole thing?

I believe that in my own lame way I have already tried to answer this very question that you have previously asked.

We're asking the ultimate question: Is the universe in its entirety by nature good, evil or neither?

Here are my answers:
*It is BOTH, at once, and that is why we humans in this world experience it as chaos.

*On this plane we literally tare ourselves in two trying to establish balance in chaos (which is ONE).

So, I think what I'm trying to express is that the "never-ending battle between two opposing principles" is what we must go thru here, on this plane, where we experience it (and the universe) as chaos.

Evil by nature is an attack on goodness. But goodness uses evil to reveal itself as compassion ("with suffering").

Just as evil uses goodness to turn on itself and tranform to its opposite. So, in terms of function, this is not a 'No Contest,' but a tug of war.

"Evil feeds off the good" - precisely. It could not exist without the good to feed off of.

And again, I must say there's something in that sentiment I just can't quite believe. My entire thought (that you've only partially quoted) is, "Evil depends on itself but feeds off of the good (or anything else) like a spiritual vampire." My sense is that evil exists unto itself. It CAN exist without the good, but within the universe (or God's order?) exists in opposition to Good.

I also said that faith is "between you and Spirit (as is the Occult)"--which you choose to ignore. But that Other does not ignore you. It, too, is Spirit, with us and a part of us.

Re: "The experience of evil is a stage along the way; it is our learning process. School is not fun."
Forgive me, but I must disagree. Evil merely a "stage along the way"? "School is not fun?" What an understatement! This sentiment (or is it a prayer?) is, I believe, denial.

Re: All suffering comes to an end. But "Love never ends"
I do not question that love is eternal, but if "All suffering comes to an end," then where & what is Hell?

It seems we have a confrontation between dualistic and non-dualistic views of the universe. The two cannot be reconciled.

So I would ask you, if evil (or even the devil, if there indeed exists another principle that is opposed to God and equal in power) is of equal status to God, then who or what created it? Are there really two Gods?

Hell is a temporary state, the state of being without faith, separated from any awareness of love. I will leave the fire and brimstone to fundamentalist preachers.

#19

It seems we have a confrontation between dualistic and non-dualistic views of the universe. The two cannot be reconciled.

But the two need not be "reconciled" if ultimately the two are ONE.

Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord thy God, the Lord is ONE!

That means everything. And with what historic and spiritual anguish have those words reverberated (for all humanity) through the ages! This is the only way I can make any honest sense of it all in its totality: the vile, mindless, evil here on earth together with all the beauty, goodness & love--devoid of resolution. But if this view (of the two as one) is irreconcilable for you, who can blame you? For me 'tis the opposite: it reconciles me with God.

There is God and there is the Devil--and, sadly, they deeply connect. Both are part of a whole we (here) can barely discern and cannot escape. The Devil (evil) is not of equal "status" to God for the two are locked in eternal opposition and balance like opposing magnetic fields. And we are pulled in attraction or repulsion from one to the other. But ultimately we get to choose. I like to think that comes from God.

You have said that you would always choose to be among the victims, never the executioners. I believe that I too have the courage to make the same choice (at least I hope I do). There have been those very close to me who would have gladly chosen otherwise.

So, I never said there are "two Gods," Carlos. I said I believe there is one eternal Almighty which encompasses opposing expressions: God and the Devil. Make of that what you can. It does vex me, but there are also angels--or, if you prefer, good spirits--hovering close that have not (as yet) abandoned me. And I pay close attention to their silent, watchful council. There is much to ponder in the Universe and in 'Spirit'--both from above and below.

As for leaving fire and brimstone to the fundamentalists, don't kid yourself, kiddo. Fire and brimstone are burning bright within the soul's essence.

The term that seems best to describe your theology is Manichaeism - an endless struggle between darkness and light. But I'm not sure what you mean here:

The Devil (evil) is not of equal "status" to God for the two are locked in eternal opposition and balance like opposing magnetic fields.

If the two are "balanced," then why are they not of equal status?

There is no proof of the matter one way or the other. I just happen to believe in karma. What you seem to get away with now, you won't be getting away with later.

As C.S. Lewis said, this world is "enemy-occupied territory." But it's also not the last word.

#21

The Devil (evil) is not of equal "status" to God for the two are locked in eternal opposition and balance like opposing magnetic fields.

Re: "If the two are 'balanced,' then why are they not of equal status?"
Because it isn't about equality or status. These are two differing parts of a whole--or eternity (the Almighty). Like incongruent pieces of a vast puzzle, God/Satan somehow connect; they FIT! Not in "equality" or "status" but in balance with "ONE" whose "fearful mystery" no "immortal hand or eye can clasp". Why is that?

What is it that we cannot perceive here? That There the two (God/Satan, Good/Evil) are ONE. They are part & parcel of everything--the eternal: that which our minds cannot clasp.

Look at the first part of the paragraph that you quoted.

There is God and there is the Devil--and, sadly, they deeply connect. Both are part of a whole we (here) can barely discern and cannot escape.

However, you've missed the more compelling reason why I believe God & the Devil though deeply connected are not of equal "status" either in mortal or immortal terms.

we are pulled in attraction or repulsion from one to the other. But ultimately we get to choose. I like to think that comes from God.

Does it? We humans do possess the ability to think and to reason. And we have the freedom of spirit, mind & soul to choose. That Choice inevitably defines each of us here in the Devil's playground, but it is also our passport to whatever comes afterward. And that too comes from the eternal Almighty. So, here at last is the difference--perhaps the only earthly difference--in our ability to choose between the two (that are ONE).

I'm pleased to learn you believe in karma. So do I. Perhaps the concept is no more than an Eastern palliative, or a philosophical cop-out. But in mortal terms the concept of karma is a method of expressing ultimate, eternal balance. Or to put it in a more Western context

The sins that you do by two and two you must pay for one by one.

So does good prevail in the end, or do the two struggle against each other throughout eternity?

#23
What do you think?

#24:
Good prevails.

#23
Re: "So does good prevail in the end, or do the two struggle against each other throughout eternity?"
Good cannot prevail throughout eternity "in the end." So I have the sense that the two (good/evil) eternally struggle together. 'Tis the stuff of life & love (for hate is not love's opposite, but its edge). 'Tis what deeply dysfunctional families & civilizations (Europe?) are made of and is therefore profoundly human--which also is 'godly' because the "struggle" IS the "life force." And if we humans created (or imagined) God out of our ability to think and fear--and dream--then in a cosmic sense perhaps we are God as God is us.

#24
If "good prevails", that is your belief & prayer. Here on earth, reality teaches the necessity of power and the consequence of absolute power being how good does NOT prevail. But good does continue, and that is the lesson for all humankind. It is also a faint, distant hope for another reality, Elsewhere.

#26:

Your vision sounds dualistic to me - good and evil struggle endlessly into an indefinite future, neither one of them prevailing. As I said, Manichean.

Well, what we're talking about ultimately comes down to faith, and faith is not provable by reason. Everyone has some kind of faith, in the sense of a way of understanding the world that makes order and sense out of it. Seeing the world as an endless struggle between good and evil is one way of making sense of what we experience.

Everybody has faith "in" something. It may be faith

- in what one was taught about God (received religion)

- in the human race (humanism)

- in an authority figure (cults)

- in science (naturalism)

- in reason (rationalism)

- in the search for pleasure (hedonism)

And I'm sure you can think of many more possibilities. These are all different ways of organizing our experience, and we all have at least one.

So we have to make a choice. We have to start somewhere. I choose to start with my sense of goodness. I have an innate though imperfect sense that some things are good and others are not. I believe we all have this, to one degree or another. You have it too, or you could not speak about good vs. evil. So who put it there? Certainly not the devil. A sense of goodness can only come from a good God.

This sense of goodness leads me to resonate with what I believe to be spiritual truth. The clearest exponent of this spiritual truth was Jesus. I cannot prove it. I only sense it. So, I choose to go with that sense.

The spiritual truth to which Jesus and other teachers of goodness have pointed involves a new understanding of eternity. When you speak of "throughout eternity," it sounds like by "eternity" you mean "endlessness." But that is just another form of time. Eternity is an entirely different dimension of existence, yet involved at every moment with the temporal world in which we live. And ultimately, it gives our temporal world meaning. Everything that is originates in eternity, but our world is a fallen one, it is separated from our origin. Eventually we return to it, and that is when the good and evil finally get separated out.

Eternal life requires this process of falling away and coming back, of estrangement and reconciliation. That is how the consciousness of love is realized. We can only pick up hints of this in our present state, but one day we will see "face to face."

So, it all comes down to the nature of one's faith. It cannot be proven. I can't logically convince you of the truth of anything that I'm saying. It is just what I sense, following my sense of goodness. And then the decision of faith - a decision we all make in one direction or another - leads me to follow that sense and to accept what it tells me.

#27
Re: "And then the decision of faith"
The lines again are being blurred between 'faith' and 'belief' where I see a true and necessary distinction. I insist that for me faith has never been a decision. Quite the opposite. In adolescence I deliberately chose disbelief but faith overtook me, so then I decided to believe (that there is something else beyond this and there is a God, whatever that may ultimately be).

Belief is a conscious choice whereas faith just comes, like inspiration; a realization, a surprise. Belief codifies, defines, discriminates whereas faith (for me) is a rare and precious gift. I decide to believe or disbelieve but faith--like the dawn--appears.

Your short list of those things you think "Everybody has faith 'in' " (and to which you are "sure" I can add so many more) was quite a shocker. Not a single item on that list do I have true faith in. Each of them--received religion, the human race, authority, science, reason, hedonism--is flawed, at best. My faith is in the absolute reality of God and of love (both of which are eternal & transcendent), and though I believe in many things, I put my faith only in these two and nothing else.

Re: "A sense of goodness can only come from a good God."
No! Here on earth it does not break down that neatly. A sense of goodness comes from the power of love which surely is part of God, but not all (if only it were!). God sees but is not always "good" (how very cool & detached of Him). For if God is good, then He is not all powerful--but if all powerful, then God is monstrous; but if not a monster, then here on earth (for all God's creatures to endure) there is Nemesis: Satan--as real as The Creator. But Love abides, and there is my faith.

Now, to the positive aspects of your latest entry. I think that at last we may have found a consensus (or a Sacred Bridge?) between your perception of the Almighty and mine.

When you speak of "throughout eternity," it sounds like by "eternity" you mean "endlessness." But that is just another form of time. Eternity is an entirely different dimension of existence, yet involved at every moment with the temporal world in which we live. And ultimately, it gives our temporal world meaning. Everything that is originates in eternity, but our world is a fallen one, it is separated from our origin. Eventually we return to it, and that is when the good and evil finally get separated out.

"Eternal life requires this process of falling away and coming back.... That is how the consciousness of love is realized....one day we will see face to face."

I don't know how you found this within your own soul, but I'm certain that this is part of something real. I feel the rightness of it, as if remembering something long forgotten that I once belonged to--always. This sense of falling away and coming back, of time and space folding and unfolding is all part of a greater, ultimate & infinte pattern. And yes, I can even conceive of evil finally falling away and folding into this ultimate infinity--as shall we! But then we are no longer our temporal selves (or even ghosts of ourselves) but pure spirit....Or are we angels?

"One day we will see face to face."

#28:

Thank you for these thoughtful comments. But you are confusing me. I seem to sense a double message. First there is God and Satan, "as real as The Creator," two equal and opposing forces struggling throughout eternity. That is dualism. But towards the end you speak of "evil finally falling away and folding into this ultimate infinity." So which is it? An endless struggle between good and evil, or an all-encompassing goodness to which everything must return? That is the central question, and cannot be answered both ways.

Carlos:

I appreciate your further comments for they now clarify and locate the exact point of schism between our beliefs: our relationship to goodness and evil. You see my acknowledgment of Satan as a dualistic (two-God) 'religion' of eternal, unresolved struggle between the good & the bad: Manichean. I see your God is Good 'religion'--with the inevitable resolution of good over bad--as an escape hatch for evading (or disposing of) the darkest, most destructive dynamics within the human and eternal soul: Happy Ending.

You see light, I see night. But with your entry #27, I now realize that both of us got it wrong in our evaluations of each other. Your belief is not about Happy Ending. It is about resolution with ultimate reconciliation. But for me that means EVERYTHING, altogether.

Hear, oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE!

#29

But towards the end you speak of "evil finally falling away and folding into this ultimate infinity." So which is it? An endless struggle between good and evil, or an all-encompassing goodness to which everything must return?

"That is the central question, and cannot be answered both ways."

Not quite, Carlos. You cannot answer it both ways but I can--and you have helped me to solidify that answer within myself:

* "Everything that is originates in eternity" ~ which is inclusive of everything, forever.

* "Eternal life requires this process of falling away and coming back, of estrangement and reconciliation." ~ not separation, yet you think that

* "Eventually we return to it, and that is when the good and evil finally get separated out." ~ No, mi amigo! That is when the good and evil finally are resolved, repatriated and reconciled to each other and within ourselves. Ultimately, finally, it is all ONE.

So, finish the thought, Carlos, that you could only partially quote

And yes, I can even conceive of evil finally falling away and folding into this ultimate infinity--as shall we!

That means all and everything, including all the good, love & light hereafter, forever--altogether.

Between us now we locate the true differentiation: for you, the answer to the "central question" must be either /or ("separated out"). For me, the "two" must ultimately be resolved as ONE. Good and evil do not struggle against each other endlessly, they struggle together until finally--"falling away and coming back"--they are reconciled, resolved, repatriated with Almighty ONE: the return is the reconciliation of earthly duality to the Almighty. THERE all are one!